I’ve already replied to your tweet that it is OK.

I intend to look at informal virtual learning environments and would like to maybe use some examples from your quilting community ethnography and maybe look at the community itself. I am not sure exactly what I’ll be doing but I will give full reference to your work if I do. Is this OK?

Good idea – thanks. Will give it a try. I only plan to use quotes that we have posted in the public domain.

regards

Sarah

I agree with you completely – there needs to be a balance, otherwise the unsettling sensation becomes too great and therefore the quality of the learning experience become compromised. The senses become overwhelmed and the content (and therefore any significant meaning) becomes lost.

I’m really looking forward to your assignment!

Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for your comments. It made me go back and watch it again (which I find is always a disconcerting experience). It was only a few weeks ago but so much work has been done since then that it seems an age ago!

I know nothing about the topic but the way you presented it made me want to listen and watch and learn. I think this has been an excellent learning experience which I for one will try to apply in the classroom setting – thankyou!

Thanks for your comments.

As the course progresses, I too get a sense of evolving. Isn’t this what learning is all about?

As far as I can see, assuming the learning is reflective then evolving is exactly what happens to us. If the learning is simply absorbing facts then there is no sense of evolution, primarily because there is no altered mental state.

I’ve only come across your blog after posting mine. I see some similar ideas in your writing. I like the fact you see printing off PDFs as part of your normalisation. I really liked Sian’s paper – even if she did possibly use one theory too many. I really identify myself with the uncanny nature of unfamiliarity. As the course progresses, I too get a sense of evolving. Isn’t this what learning is all about?

“This theory that we are naturally evolving into techno-beings leaves me cold”

I agree. I cannot imagine a situation where I could be convinced that the human body is set to be a lump of useless meat, simply being maintained as a lifesupport system for a brain that can travel anywhere, unless there was something seriously wrong with my body in the first place.

With a choice between life and death, I think I would choose the machine, but for no other reason than my inbuilt survival instincts!

Thanks for the comment, especially:

“This quote used by the woman who feared for her vlog presentation because of a lack of make up!!! ”

That made me laugh!

And who wouldn’t want to be Toyah Wilcox in 1981. If I was to be a cyborg, she would make a cracking template!

This quote used by the woman who feared for her vlog presentation because of a lack of make up!!!

Thank you for ending your blog thus -

“the loss of selfhood and elimination of the ‘real’ or ‘natural’ body” Muri

Surely the ‘perfect’ ‘natural’ body is the ultimate prize, so where does that leave Hayles posthuman?

Whatever the future holds, lets hope it contains real people, who look real. I caught a glimpse of Katy Price (Jordan) last night on TV. I think she reflects Haraway’s feminist image of the cyborg today. I think she’s horendous! I’m all for using digital technology, but I want to be me. I want to be free. I want to be – Toyah Wilcox???

I will try playing around with Tmblr since you seem to have had some success with it.

I feel reassured by your comments on posthumans. This theory that we are naturally evolving into techno-beings leaves me cold. I had the pleasure of my student son for company last weekend. He’s a real social science student and loves argument and debate – I think he could start a fight in a room of one. I laid out Haraway and Hayles to him, which he instantly dismissed. “Where’s the determinist standpoint on posthumanism” he asked. “All technological development to date has been driven by capitalism.” It makes money or efficiency savings. But what benefit is there in surrendering human autonomy to technology?” I didn’t have an argument for him. Surely if we don’t want to become machines, we have the power to reject them.

Cheers

Thanks for your comments which were very timely as they fitted precisely with a blog entry with reference to Muri and the posthuman condition I was working on which I have posted here.

I like the way you have unpicked Hayle’s concept of posthuman. And I think the key is the rejection of individualism which I think is central to a humanist view. The point about control is (I think) that control is part and parcel of an individualistic, humanistic view of life – and that is an illusion anyway. As individuals we have limited control – depending on the social conditions we are situated. So we are not really losing control but losing the illusion of control. The posthuman is about connections and relations with others through technology and using technology to extend ourselves.

I guess. I am still struggling too.

Thanks for your comment – and a great link. Scary that the ‘educated’ still don’t get how these things can follow them through life!

this is something that I’ve been thinking about lately too. There has been a lot of (negative) press lately about social networking platforms like Facebook and Twitter, and the effects that networked environments have on kids. I do think that it is dangerous-from a ‘digital migrants’ perspective (as much as I hate the term!) at least. Most of the criticism has centered around kids not being aware of their actions which could harm them in the future as well as the existence of stupid online groups (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/09/2736793.htm) which also might be having an influence.

If we combine these developments with Hayles’ idea (which I think is powerful and true) – ‘what we make and what we are co-evolve together’ – it could signal a shifting of morals in the future- if this kind of behaviour is commonplace, it will ‘become; part of us.

What surprises me is some of the stuff people do publicly online (e.g. above link)- when the net is ideal for anonymous action, people still reveal themselves to the world in ridiculous ways.

I agree

“Why would cyborgs be any different?”

What does strike me as scarey, but not necessarily surprising, is the amount of enhancement to sexual cyborgs already available (warning: not for the faint hearted!)

So that much is already here!

I am glad that something I have said has got you thinking… it is usually the other way around

I think that I prefer your idea that instead of becoming the same in a gender free world , we all become so different that there are no longer any victims of their own uniqueness. More comforting than a world where individuality is dead and we are all cyborg clones!

I think I agree that a post-gender world might be something to aspire to. I do worry though about such a world erasing or stigmatising difference. My post-gender vision is full of happy hybrids and queers (in the queer theory sense – http://www.theory.org.uk/ctr-que1.htm ), not ’sexless, colourless’ carbon copies. I don’t think the solution to inequality is to make everything the same, in other words. Maybe I think a way to eradicate prejudice is to make everything and everyone so complicated and unique that there’s no ‘them’ to despise – though it seems we humans are quite good at finding a ‘them’ in any situation!

Thanks for looking at my flickr site – that is indeed a brooch. I finally got hold of soluble fabric last year having been trying to find it for years and years so got very over excited embroidering freehand and embroidering with the soluble fabric as an extra safety layer on leather pieces hence the brooch. I may go back to knitting and embellishing knitting this christmas… I must start making a “to make” present list in fact….

Thanks for your comments and thanks for visiting my own craft blog – it is nice to know some people are reading it

“it also made me want to spend the rest of the night locked in my craft cupboard with my beads and fabrics and such. ”

It had a similar effect on me too!

I agree with you on changing trends over time. I am suddenly finding myself bang on trand with the machine embroidery that I play around with where as 10 years ago I was all on my own! I followed the link to your Flickr site and I love your work too. I adore the red flower (brooch?)!

There were a few things that I thought were quite interesting as someone who also reads craft blogs (or, more often, crafters annotated Flickr streams). I was interested in how crafters presented or photographed their work. I know scrapbook and papercraft and yarn enthusiasts are particularly keen on packaging and presenting their work very precisely and informally form decisions of trust based on items swapped or shared. I noticed that many quilters presented their work in situ – often in a Martha Stewart-esque home setting and I wondered if that was wear masking and self-concious representation was perhaps more likely in this group than in the naming and blogging elements. Not that I am trying to be cynical but I know it is hard to light and photograph craftwork, particularly in soft materials, easily and so some degree of self-consciousness must come into this representation and sharing.

The other thing I noticed was the changes in trends – you spoke in your vlog about the status of quilting (indeed the timeline you talk through suggests that there could be a very interesting feminist analysis of the position of quilting and crafting over the last 100 years actually) but I was also wondering if the style of quilted objects made. I am not an expert in quilting but I followed one of your links back to your own craft blog (which I loved all the work on btw – beautiful beading in particular!) and it reminded me of some changes in the beading community which have taken place in the last 20 years in which I’ve been making jewellery. In particular the type, cost and style of beads used in the beader community seems to have radically altered from an emphasis on larger chunkier work involving wire, unusual beads, ethnic accents, onto seed bead framed creative work. I like both but my long term experience as a beader had been one of isolation until a real upturn in the popularity of beading: now I can buy beads anywhere but I am surprised by how much seed beads and sewing techniques dominate over wire work and larger bead styles. I have several theories about why this has taken place but I was, to finally get to my point, if the same sorts of trends seem to be visible in the quilting community and if popularity of quilting or discussion tends to cluster around particular styles of work?

Anyway I really loved the ethnography and need to remember to get crafting again and start photographing more of my craft work as I go (my Flickr craft set (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eurovision_nicola/sets/72157604207778201/) has become all food and no jewellery!)

Just another thought on age and the internet. I feel that people of different ages do use the internet in different ways and the fact that the members of the quilting group are older would certainly make a difference in the way they relate to each other. It’s not only age though, I think it has even more to do with how mobile they are and also how much time they have. If they are pensioners maybe living on their own and finding it hard to get out they will view their online group much more as a community then if they are people who have a large social network anyway.

“Is make up in real world the same concept as hiding behind an avatar in cyberland?”

oooo nice question that could open up a whole can of worms!!! Why do I wear makeup? Who do I wear it for? What image am I trying to project? Is makeup a feminist issue?

You have made me think about my SL avatar and how she looks; a slightly taller, slightly thinner version of the real me. Why the need to be more attractive in what is obviously an unreal world? Surely that says more about me than the virtual world?

Now we could start a whole new topic – is make up in real world the same concept as hiding behind an avatar in cyberland.

I am glad that you liked the vlog – and I agree that it was a very strange experience.

I actually recorded a short ‘practice’ vlog which you can see here to get me used to using the technology. I found it so odd that I ended up putting a smiley face on the webcam to give me a sense of conversation.

What was unnerving was when I watched it back I realised that I had no make up on! How terrible So now I am ‘out there’ in the virtual world, giving my real name and wearing no make up for the whole world to see! Something that seemed transigent has become permanent.

Cheers

I am sorry you can’t see my Vlog. This is the page access directly through Youtube so hope that works better for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0zYJYrCk4E

I am also glad to hear that there are some male quilters out there – even though my small cross section of blogs didnt succeed in finding any!

“I was amazed how they had found a way to physically swop pieces of quilting – the real world interacting with the virtual. “

I was also impressed at how the two worlds (the realand the virtual) seem to meet quite nicely. Though thinking about this I suppose that it is harldy surprising when the ‘knowledge’ that glues this community together (quilting) can only exist in the real world. They do indeed appear to be a lovely group – and a very authenitic group in that they share very real stories, hopes and dreams in quite an ‘old fashioned’ way. By that I mean that the conversations seem to mirror the real world face to face conversations that would have taken place a 100 years ago between a group of women working on a real quilt. This face to face conversation has now become virtual, but not any less real!

Your ethnography is fantastic! I really enjoyed exploring it and what a rich community. I was amazed how they had found a way to physically swop pieces of quilting – the real world interacting with the virtual. I found it interesting that a group focused on a physical ‘real world’ craft found the time to interact online. And they seemed such a lovely group. Your presentation of the community and your interweaving of the literature was extremely well-done. Congratulations.

P.S. I know one over 65 male quilter who started quilting upon retirement after he found an old quilting pattern book that belonged to his grandmother. He is colour-blind but that doesn’t stop him. His wife or people that run the quilting shop he goes to help him pick out the colours.

Also I couldn’t see the vlog that Sibylle mentioned. There was a blank square area at the beginning where I guess it was located.

Thanks for you comments. I am glad that you liked my vlog – I must admit to feeling a bit strange talking to my laptop in a closed room!

I was amazed at how people blogged about their very intimate personal details (very different to my cat’s group).

I was also surprised at the intimate details people put on their blogs. I did do a spot poll where I attempted to ascertain the approximate age of the blogger. I refrained from adding this to my ethnography because it was so ‘random’ and therefore completely unscientific.
I found that ALL of the bloggers I checked at random belonged to women – I didnt find a single man in the 30-40 blogs I sampled. I would imagine that this is related to the subject matter, because thought there are male quilters out there they are few and far between and didnt appear in my sample. As to the age groups, I split them into rough ages (0-40, 40-60 & 60+) according to the information they supplied (inc pictures). This is obviously full of issues but I guessed at:
0-40 – 30% (most being 30-40 – i didnt find any obviously below 20)
40-60 – 50%
60+ – 20%
What was suprising was that some of the most intimate postings (including the one shown with the sick family member) were from people who appeared to be over 60. So Sibylle you may be correct that it is a generational thing! I was actually suprised at the number of ‘over 60’s’ bloggers because you expect blogging to be a young thing. Perhaps all the young people are too busy tweeting to blog!

This again was a really interesting ethnography (I’m finding them all extremely interesting). I liked the personal introduction with you speaking as the ethnographer, I think that really brought out the reflexive point of view. It was also very neatly put together. I was amazed at how people blogged about their very intimate personal details (very different to my cat’s group). People seem to trust each other very much. It might also have to do with the age group, I wonder whether there is quite a high proportion of elderly people in this group?

I think that Tracy’s comment that such violation might be more like an obscene phone call than anything one would define as rape but I do believe some real sense of violation is possible online

I completely agree with you; surely it is a matter of scale and how close you feel to the creation being abused. In a situation like Twitter where it is a very personal narrative, such attacks would surely feel more intense. Take for example the fabulous Mr Stephen Fry and his latest twitter traumas where he was upset by a another blogger calling his texts ‘boring’. As Stephen uses his own name and his own thoughts these comments hurt as much as if someone had come up and said it to him in the street.

Since the incident Stephen has appologised for his response and made peace with the user. I think this is also relevant because after the sting of the comment has passed, he became aware that his response was possibly a little over the top and that no one was physically hurt!

I think you can feel a sense of violation and offense online in a virtual community like LambdaMOO but I think to characterize any online activity as akin to rape is to be quite offensively unaware of what that term means to other people.

Precisely. Some people life with the pain of the real thing every day and possibly stories like the cyber rape belittle their own experiences.

I think that Tracy’s comment that such violation might be more like an obscene phone call than anything one would define as rape but I do believe some real sense of violation is possible online. The phrasing is really alarmist and I wonder if there is any sense of peer expectation about the reaction: I wonder if it just might not just be that their characters/avatars have been made to do obscene things with Mr Bungle, but that it is “falsely attributed to other characters in the virtual community” so there knowledge amongst other players of what the characters have done. Not only will players feel violated but they will also want to protect their reputation in a space where involvement relies on relationships and credibility and that may lead to a more hysterical characterization of the act that has taken place.

With several players effected I think it is also likely that labels will have been thrown around quite lightly with little thought about what those terms might mean to people with some sort of experience or proximity to their more real/legal definition. I know when I have been part of online communities receiving abuse the level of hysteria and flame wars can quickly get whipped up as multiple offended parties become enraged and encourage each other to react to the offending party.

So, I think you can feel a sense of violation and offense online in a virtual community like LambdaMOO but I think to characterize any online activity as akin to rape is to be quite offensively unaware of what that term means to other people.

So if I do this in real life how can I complain if people only represent portions of themselves to me in the VR?

I agree that this is a really important question – as I commented to Andy, though (http://digitalculture-ed.net/andym/2009/10/20/etnography-and-digital-communities/#comment-33), I find virtual ethnography a really good excuse for thinking about how ethnography and research in general positions itself in relation to authenticity. Do we ever have reason to claim ‘authenticity’? What does that mean? These are the sorts of questions I especially like…

I guess it is like people who believe Coronation Street is real.

That is always a worry!

While virtual rape does not equate to rl rape it is still offensive.

I do agree that any kind of personal attach can be upsetting, even when it occurs in cyberspace. However, I still find that I draw a line between my own virtual identity in blogs, FB, twitter etc and my very well used avatars in World of Warcraft. In WoW these avatars are characters, rather than really representations of myself, and therefore actions undertaken against them are not taken against me. However comments made in FB etc are aimed at me as an individual and are as a result intended to be hurtful. These comments are very hurtful.

I think the labelling is off putting – I hate when people use something like PTS so lightly. But as to the question of “how deeply these people related to their online identites” I think I don’t relate to my online identity at all – I AM my online identity. Just because I am online doesn’t make it any less me.

Maybe being sexually abused online can be likened to receiving an anonymous and random obscene phone call – they don’t know you, but is still spooky, and it is still you that is being spooked.

To view it another way if it is possible to express love and simulate *cough* physical affection in a virtual space in order to engender positive feelings in yourself and another, then it must be possible to suffer when that same sense of self is abused in such a negative way.

I also thought that it was you in the centre mediating the good and valuefull (for you) of the web with the risky and more unreal aspects of digital culture. I like the red/blue pill comments others have made and certainly see some fantasy/reality divides there so that makes sense to me.

The image it brought to mind for me was that of the “she’s alive!” moment of Bride of Frankenstein (or Weird Science if you like the more comedy version of the same scene) and a sense that the digital helps enliven or awaken your world (whether for good or ill).

And yes it is me – possibly from my best side

In which case, nice references to the Matrix and to the Bell and Hand readings, dystopias and perhaps also ‘being human’.

Regardless of the accuracy of my interpretation – great piece of work.

I’m not sure about the posture of the woman: is she rushing into the digital or trying to push it back?

That seems to me to raise an interesting question, Sarah – to what extent are multimodal or digital texts different, and do they change the meanings of concepts? Authority is a thorny concept at the best of times, but it seems to me that in interactive genres like blogs it might actually be mean someone’s ability to provoke discussion, to make things happen in their space, on their terms. (or is that just popularity?)

Also, saw Asimo the robot (http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/) at the Edinburgh Science Festival this year and was a bit put off by the attempts by the creators to make him seem not only human-like, but subservient.

* Error fetching feed from http://wallwisher.com/wall/cultures (XML error: Mismatched tag at line 22, column 9)….

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.o
any idea what this means?

Hi Sarah

I think we’ve met on a course before. I liked the reference to the security blanket that’s been ripped away. That’s exactly how it feels like to me.

Bye
Sibylle